In Conversation With Daniel Coucerio
Biologist and avid conservationist Daniel Coucerio has explored and been inspired by many natural havens, including the Amazon and Sierra Nevada. His projects bring together communities and spread awareness in order to preserve the vital ecosystems all around us. As an educator, he focuses on bringing the fight for conservation to the youth, and works on encouraging young people to appreciate and protect the environment around them. In an engaging interview with the Youth STEM Matters team, led by Shalini Sellam and Iona Finney, Daniel talks about his work with the Bird Club, ecotourism, Zooniverse, and the value of collaboration and community in conservation.
Daniel Coucerio
Shalini: Thank you so much for being here. It’s really nice to meet you. We've heard a lot about your work. For anyone unfamiliar though, would you be able to give a brief summary of your work?
Daniel: I studied biology with a major in ecology, and then I did my master's in biodiversity and conservation, where my thesis was about the ecology of birds - waders more exactly. After a couple of small experiences in Spain, mostly with ospreys, I went to the Peruvian Amazon, and I was there for three years managing a big citizen science initiative, which was a very interesting and cool project. There were 3 different projects within it: one was about discovering new species, the second was about monitoring the population of Jaguars in the southeastern Peruvian Amazon, and the third one was about the brazil nut trees where we were using drones to monitor the reproduction of Brazil nut trees. The entire project was all linked to ecotourism, and the whole research was conducted in ecotouristic lodges. It was focused both on the marketing strategy and the other was coming up with a way to make tourists from all over the world participate in the research itself. It was a super big success and it is still going on. They have discovered more than 20 species of insects, and deployed more than 300 camera traps and the research on the Brazilian trees is really interesting.
After that, in 2018, I moved to Colombia to a very special place in the Sierra Nevada de Santa Marta, which is a mountain range on Colombia’s north coast. It is one of the biggest centres for endemism in the world because of its isolation from the Andes mountain range. There, I created an environmental education project, a bird club, thanks to the funding of National Geographic and Rufford Foundation. It was a bird club because birds are the biggest attraction, so we used the attraction of the birds to deal with a lot more things like ecotourism, restoration-based education, art, photography, and different intrapreneurship skills for teenagers so that they could keep living in their rural communities without needing to escape to the city to make a living. When I started my club in Columbia, I started my Ph.D. in environmental education at Wageningen University. Then, at the end of last year, I moved to Europe, and here I am in Bulgaria right now.
Shalini: Thank you so much. That's a really interesting journey. It's so interesting to see how you've kind of moved all around the world working on this project, and the project is so successful as well, so it's really amazing to hear about. Why are you so passionate about encouraging young people to explore nature, and what inspired you to kind of promote this conservation with young people specifically?
Daniel: That's a good question. I was working in the Amazon, and I realised that a lot of the young local people didn't know what we were doing there. We were all these researchers from all around the world, but the local people didn't know what we were doing there. Then when I moved to Columbia, and I saw the massive potential of bird watching and other types of ecotourism in the area, I realised that the local kids didn't know anything about them. They had super endemic birds and endangered birds in their area that were the last 300 individuals of that species, but they didn't know, and were using slingshots to throw stones at them. So there was a super big gap of why these kids don't know their natural heritage.
Then, around the same time, there was this article, called The Wellness of Children, by Cairo Blackfish. If there's an article I recommend to everybody, it’s that article. It speaks about how education has been shaped in a way that we become, that we are the raw material to serve the needs of the system, to serve the needs of society. So, society, in order to make it work, needs people with certain skills that fit the requirements of companies, corporations, and the way the world works. It's a simple logic: I need this, so I need to teach the kids this. However, that has brought a huge disconnection from the land, and right now so many people know anything about the creatures that we live alongside. Like, you hear a bird singing outside and 95% of the people don't know which bird it is. They don't know which type of bee pollinates the food that they eat. They don't know the state of the soil, the way their tomatoes grow. I found that people were totally unaware of what gives us oxygen, what gives us water and what gives us food. It’s almost like we’re aliens of ourselves, and that's the crazy part.
“If you don’t have a deep connection with nature, you cannot have a deep connection with you, because it’s one and the same.”
If you don't have a deep connection with nature, you cannot have a deep connection with you, because it's one and the same. Separating nature and humans is the biggest mistake. They’re the same thing. So this connection from nature brings a disconnection from yourself, and then we're surprised at why young people have increased in rates of suicide, increasing rates of depressed kids. It's crazy that we’re surprised by that…But, I'm not surprised. We’re disconnected from the source, and that's why I am on a mission to reconnect young people with nature.
Shalini: Thank you so much, that’s very interesting. You're right - there's a definite disconnect between the things we rely on and the things we share an ecosystem with. We barely know anything about them. My next question leading on from that is, what is the biggest challenge you face when you are bringing environmental education to young people?
Daniel: The first is a sustainable long term source of funding. Few people want to fund environmental education because there's no profit back, there's no immediate return. You really need to have a long term vision, which is something that most people lack these days.
On the other side, it's very hard to work with both parents and kids, because everybody's thinking about how they are going to feed themselves, right? Like, what is my work going to involve if I do this, if I take care of nature, how am I going to provide for my family? Those are questions that we're trying to resolve: a lot of people in many different fields of knowledge are working on solutions for regenerative farming, holistic grazing, and bringing rural life back. So how do you convince young people that learning about nature and being in contact with it is good for them, rather than solely teaching them programming which can get them a high-paying job right after they graduate? It's hard on both sides because it is very hard to show short term results and outcomes.
Shalini: Thank you, it seems like a very challenging role to have, and you’re considering so much about young people and their futures as well, so balancing all of that must be difficult. My next set of questions focuses more closely on your work and your projects. The first one is, what do you hope the impact of the Young Birders Club will be on the rural community of Sierra Nevada? And is there anything that you've learned from that, that you think you can apply on a global scale?
Daniel: I think that there's something wrong in the general approach to conservation that is happening right now, and it's rooted in the concept of having to monetise everything. When you have to monetise everything, there's something wrong. We created the concept of ecosystem services to justify nature conservation - how wicked is that? If you go and tell the Indigenous people all over the world that they need to protect their rivers because there's this amount of money, they’re gonna laugh at you.
I believe using birds is the easiest way to connect with nature. When you start observing birds and how they connect with pollinating insects, with plants, how they disperse seeds, how they prey on other birds, you start to see the connections with the whole ecosystem. You see how they work for us. For example, a swallow is a 20g creature. In a whole life they can eat 30 kilos of insects! You need something to eat the insects if they're eating your crops, and swallows are there, doing the job. When people see the connections they understand the value without the need of the money.
That connection with the land can substitute the monetising concept and the monetising mindset. I think that's the biggest lesson that we have seen. We've seen these kids, and how they're becoming watching eyes who understand the importance of keeping the forest alive, which actually puts money in their pockets and food on their plates. They understand that it’s important not just because the birds live there, but because they understand that their whole livelihood depends on it. So you need to use a tool that allows the kids to see the connections. And when you see the connection, your dependence, your interconnection within the whole thing, you start understanding. It happens deep, it happens in your gut, it happens in your heart. It's not in your head. This has been the biggest revelation that we have had.
Shalini: That's very interesting, and would be a really nice perspective to apply on a global scale; focussing on the intrinsic value of nature instead of focusing on the money. So my next question is also to do with Sierra Nevada. One of your projects’ main goals in Sierra Nevada is to increase ecotourism in the area. So what are the benefits and limitations of ecotourism as a kind of environmental improvement strategy?
Daniel: That's a very good question. And honestly, it's not about more. I think we're at the point where it’s not about numbers. It's not about bringing more ecotourism, there's enough people visiting. But the problem is that it's colonialised - the tourist industry is colonialist. All of the owners of the lodges, they are from outside, they're not from the Sierra Nevada. More than 50% are from outside of Colombia, and the other 50% they're from Colombia, but they're from other parts of Colombia. So the owners, the people who actually have the money and enjoy the benefits and the profits of it are not from there. The people from Sierra Nevada are working in the industry, but have the smallest salaries, and they cannot see the link between the people visiting, and improving livelihoods in their communities. So how it works needs to change - to change the dynamics to empower the local people, so they can start their own ecotourism businesses.
Also, in Colombia, land conflict is what started the war in Colombia six years ago. And the land is something that Gustavo Petro (Colombia’s president) is focussing on right now - sorry to go into politics, but everything is linked. Petro is taking land that is not used and giving it to local people. So there needs to be capital available to local communities, so they can start businesses that they can profit from, without working for anybody else. So it's not a question of more, it's changing the power dynamics of how ecotourism works.
Shalini: That's very interesting to hear about, especially the way that you linked it to politics as well. It's interesting to hear about how it's not more ecotourism that's necessary, but the kind of ecotourism you're getting - I think that may be a common misconception.
One of your goals on your research project is also to build community capacity to solve environmental problems. What role do you think these rural communities that you were talking about can have on solving global challenges?
“The role of these communities is to be the guardians, to be the stewards, of these places. They keep the earth on a balance, because the rest of the world is completely unbalanced.”
Daniel: Good question! I think the first one is the same thing that Indigenous communities are doing all over the world. Indigenous communities are guardians of the most pristine ecosystems of the world. There is, in my opinion, a very wrong approach in how conservation has been right now. There is the target of “we need to protect 30% of natural areas of the world”, and people think nobody lives there, that just wildlife is there. Actually, those places are inhabited. They're inhabited by people who know how to live sustainably on that land, and they're actually protecting those pieces of land from colonialist processes. The role of these communities is to be the guardians, to be the stewards, of these places. They keep the earth on a balance, because the rest of the world is completely unbalanced. So we need these local communities to show that their way of managing the land is the right one, and that the wildlife thrives on their side while they are thriving as communities as well.
Shalini: Okay, so my next question for you is: you mentioned sharing the Amazon cam footage using Zooniverse with the world. So what impact do you think global accessibility and collaboration can have on the development of scientific discoveries?
Daniel: I think it's a matter of connection, and establishing that connection that allows people to develop this sense of belonging. Without some sense of belonging, there's no care. And sense of belonging, you can have it with the ecosystem that is on the side of your house - it's in your community - and equally you can have it with the Amazon rainforest or with the Arctic, even if you've never been there, because you understand that it's a part of the whole cycle, it's part of the keeps everything working. Did you know that the soil of the Amazon is full of sand from the Sahara Desert? So that, in a way, explains you. The super deep connections that there are and when you allow participation of people in research, you learn and when you learn, you discover, you understand, then you appreciate and you want to protect that.
Shalini: That's amazing, and I think you're right - making connections with people across the world and different areas that you haven't necessarily experienced, that's something, I think we will find very important here as well.
Iona: These next few questions will focus a bit more on your experiences and some of your work. What did you learn in your master's degree and how has it impacted your research projects?
Daniel: Honestly, not very much. I'm not going to say that I was the best master’s student ever, and I wasn't the worst either. But the teachers were not very passionate. I have to say that I had one good teacher, and sometimes that is enough, who taught me about birds. That teacher was the one who taught me about ecological modelling and how to monitor birds to get that particular information that you need. So l learned monitoring techniques and a bit of modelling and a bit of how life is like within a research laboratory. I think that was the best I got and how it felt to get my first taste of what a researcher’s life could be.
Shalini: It's interesting to hear that you didn't necessarily learn much from your masters, but that there was also a good experience that you learned from. How did you find collaborating within your research projects, and is there anything that you learned about scientific research through those collaborations specifically?
Daniel: I think that scientific research is something wonderful. But, I think these days it's understood in the wrong way. I've seen lots of researchers doing one piece of research taking one set of data and publishing four papers about it, and the importance is put on publishing papers. In my opinion, the importance should never be put just on publishing papers - papers are the byproduct of it. To me, the importance is what new thing you are bringing into the world, and how it is going to impact the world. Research needs to bring something good to society. If it’s research for the sake of research research, what is the point of it? In my experience, academia has a lot of bad in it; it's about the name, the reputation, how many references you get, and all this stuff. But, this is disconnected from the real world, and the necessities of the people who navigate the world. On the other hand, from what I’ve seen, for young researchers at Youth STEM Matters, their main goal of research is to bring something positive to the world.
Iona: Yes, I think making sure research has that positive impact on the world is something that's really important. The next thing we want to ask is, what have you learned by being a National Geographic Explorer? Have you applied anything that you've done through that to the work you do today?
Daniel: Honestly, it’s given me the most amazing range of resources. This includes conferences, people, events, webinars, educational resources, courses, training, gaining access to other grants. It's a wonderful community with many very inspiring people. And what I liked most about other explorers is that they have that mindset of bringing a positive impact to the world, because that's something that National Geographic puts a lot of emphasis on. Your research needs to bring something positive to your community. It's a really cool institution – the setting of the NatGeo explorers is beautiful. I can’t say a single bad word about them.
Shalini: I'm a huge fan of National Geographic, and I'm sure everyone else here is as well, and being a National Geographic Explorer is a very unique role to have. For this next set of questions, we're going to focus more on young people and how we and other young people can get involved in the type of work you do. I know that your recent work focuses on empowering young people to explore and protect the natural world. What do you think can be done globally to help encourage more young people to do what they can for their own communities?
Daniel: Well, the first thing is, you need to go out there. This, your phone, is very dangerous. This makes you want to be inside and it deepens the disconnection. So first you need to go out there, walk, watch, hear, smell and touch, and awaken your senses. And second, I feel there's a really, really important urge to link nature conservation to rural livelihoods. The more the rural land is being abandoned, the more bigger multinationals and bigger corporations get their hands on the rural land and do whatever they want. There's a need to create new rural livelihoods, to explore different options, to go back to the land, so people don't think that working the land is something bad or degrading, something that doesn't have importance. Money needs to come to the rural areas, and good wages need to be paid to people that work in the rural areas. That's the most urgent link that I feel. It’s something that I'm focused on right now. How can sustainable rural livelihoods be encouraged? Here in Bulgaria, this country is gorgeous, but there are so many villages abandoned. In Spain it’s the same, in Portugal it’s the same. The whole of Europe is abandoning their rural areas. I think that's the most urgent topic right now regarding environmental education.
Iona: If you could give one message about conservation to youth around the world, what would it be?
“So wander your land, wander your forests, get muddy. Awaken that key that can connect. Everybody has a kid inside.”
Daniel: One message about conservation? That’s a tough one… I think it's about being a rebel a bit. I think we need a bit of rebellion. Not a violent rebellion, but rebellion of going against the trend. If everything right now is technological and digital and social media. No, I'm gonna do the opposite thing. I'm going to go outside. So wander your land, wander your forests, get muddy. Awaken that key that can connect. Everybody has a kid inside. When you play out in nature, when you discover, when you touch, when you smell, when you get muddy, that awakens the kid inside. And that is the most beautiful thing that allows that connection to happen. I think that's the first step towards reconnecting.
Shalini: That's some really good advice. I live in a city, so it's difficult sometimes to get outside, but when I can, it's nice to get out there. If you had to summarise what advice would you give to a young person who is interested in conservation?
Daniel: There’s a lot of thoughts coming to my head, but if I had to pick one big piece of advice, it's connect, connect with people. It's always about the power of the people. You want to save nature? Connect with people, you need to work with the people. At the beginning, I made the mistake of saying "no, I don't like to work with people, it will just waste time” - but it doesn't work like that. You need to be in your team. You need to create your connections with people who have the same passion and determination as you. Surround yourself with like minded people. It's always about the power of the people. There's a really interesting sentence: if you want to walk quickly, walk alone; if you want to walk far, gather your team. So it's about connecting with people.
Shalini: A great collaboration is everything. That's a great piece of advice. I think we can all take that into our own lives and use it.
Lizzie: At the beginning, you mentioned using drones to monitor brazil nut trees, and that's something I've been learning about university, about how technology can be used in conservation. How do you see technology helping conservation into the future?
“Technology applied to conservation, like camera trapping, is magnificent. It’s the same as academia - it’s about the purpose: it’s a tool. ”
Daniel: I think it’s wonderful, because you can save a lot of effort, and a lot of money, and a lot of time. For example, I know that in a lot of parts of South America, they're monitoring wildfires and logging with drones - it makes everybody's life so, so much easier. Technology applied to conservation, like camera trapping, is magnificent. It’s the same as academia - it's about the purpose: it’s a tool. Technology is a tool not an end - it can never be an end. Technology always has to be a tool for a positive impact in the world, so I love it.
Shalini: All right, that's great, I don't think we have any more questions for you. This has been a really, really wonderful interview, we've all learned a lot. And you know, the advice that you've given us, and the things we've learned from your career so far have been absolutely amazing. We really appreciate you taking the time to speak to us.
