In Conversation with Dr Natisha Dukhi
Over the past 18 months, the outreach of public health researchers has become more evident in society, as their advice has played a vital role in navigating the COVID-19 pandemic. However, the vast impact of public health researchers extends beyond COVID-19 guidance. Dr. Natisha Dukhi has been working for over a decade as a medical scientist and public health researcher in South Africa and globally. She has specialised in human anatomy, physiology, pathophysiology, and clinical nutrition, with over 40 publications. As a member of the executive board of directors for the Public Health Association of South Africa, and current chair of the scientific committee, her contribution to the scientific community is ever-expanding. She was also recognized as a BRICS Young Scientist 2018 awardee and was a recipient of the Gro Brundtland Award for outstanding work in the field of public health and sustainable development.
In an insightful interview led by volunteers Anna Zhang and Madeleine Perry, Dr. Natisha Dukhi shares her experience in the public health space, covering various topics such as gender equality, the stigma surrounding obesity, and the impact of technology in research…
Dr Natisha Dukhi.
Anna: Thank you so much for joining us Natisha! To start off our interview today, could you begin by telling us a bit about the projects that you've been devoting most of your time to recently? How do you conduct the research that you do?
Natisha: I am a research specialist at the Human Sciences Research Council in South Africa. I'm based in Cape Town and currently, I'm all over the place! So if someone asked me what my actual job title is, I'm a behavioural scientist, and I work on population studies. But I don't resolve myself to work in just one area because I feel there's so much to be working on. So my current projects are vast, but I'll just name a few of them. I am the PI of the first artificial intelligence study in South Africa that looks at characterising risk factors for anaemia in children and adolescents. It's a BRICS multilateral collaborative study with Russia and India and we've just completed year one. It's really fascinating because I wanted to go out of my comfort zone and work with artificial intelligence since I am a nutrition expert. It’s taught me a lot so far - one of the things I say to people is that you don't stop learning, even when you get a PhD. If you're not learning every day, then something's wrong.
A study that's very close to my heart and I would like to see materialise, hopefully when funding comes through, was a study that I developed while I was doing my postdoc. It was a project that looked again at nutrition, but specifically diet and physical activity in schools. I mean, this is a worldwide problem. Adolescents are facing numerous issues around diet and physical activity based on the foods we eat, but especially in the South African context, to eat healthily is very expensive. When I first wrote the study, I took almost a year to develop that proposal. What I got was a vast amount of feedback from various sectors and collaborators and stakeholders. So I approached the Department of Health, the Department of Basic Education, as well as the Department of Sports and Recreation in South Africa. After a lot of work, back and forth meetings, going out to rural places, and meeting with these stakeholders, I found that every country has what is called indigenous sports. But, it's so minimally advertised and marketed that we actually don't know about it. When we talk about sports, we think of the Olympics and all of these big investor sports, but every country has indigenous sports. I didn’t know, even as a researcher, that those 11 or 12 sports that are played in South Africa, my mum played when she was growing up as a child. These sports are easy enough because they use home-based stuff, like cans that contain food in them. You clean them up and children bring them to school, and they could utilise them for these indigenous sports. For me, that was a huge thing. Now, I have developed and hopefully, I will produce the first study in South Africa that looks at indigenous sport as part of physical activity. It will be the first study using mobile health technology, meaning I will put together an app that parents and teachers at the school can use for interventions. I'm hoping that if we are very good with the funding, the study can be rolled out from next year, right until 2024.
Then, another area of work that I’m very passionate about is gender. I have just been appointed recently as a project director on the first national survey on gender-based violence (GBV) in South Africa. GBV is something very close, especially for me that I deal with and see a lot of. In the news every day, women are facing GBV issues. The impact of COVID-19 has really exacerbated this to something that's beyond any kind of description. So I will be working on this study for the next three years. That's something that I really want to work on. My vision has always been, when I worked in these impoverished places, that I empower women and children through literacy and through science. If I had to open up a nonprofit organization (NGO), it would definitely be empowering women and children through better science opportunities for children, the youth, and especially for women in impoverished areas.
Another piece of work that I'm currently engaged with is a lot of COVID-19 work. We have a youth study, which is the first regarding COVID-19, and we are hoping that other countries can utilise the information that we have to develop similar, if not better, studies. We also have a healthcare worker survey that we've completed, which is both quantitative and qualitative, and we’re now in phase two. This study is all about gaining the experiences of these people who are working at the frontline, and seeing what their perspective is. We've come up with something new during this phase where, for the healthcare worker survey, instead of just interviewing people, we decided that we are going to utilise an app that has already been developed in the UK. We are looking at what they want to tell us rather than what we want to ask them. It's giving us rich data. It's giving us the true nature of what happens behind the scenes. We're very quick to think all they do is look after COVID-19 patients, but I don't think it's as simple as that. It affects their mindset. It's affecting the way they go to work each day. It's how they are productive each day. How do they come back to their families each day? A whole lot of things. So those are just some of the studies I'm involved in. There's a lot more, but as you can see, I'm smiling, as these are the ones I'm very passionate about.
Madeleine: We can see that for sure. The next thing I wanted to ask was, having worked with so many other researchers and scientists, both older and younger, are there any who have inspired you and directed the path of your career?
Natisha: When I started a PhD, a few years ago, I had reservations because I came from a purely medical background, and I was moving to a public health space. That means a huge jump, not just in terms of writing, but your whole thought processes. I was going to work with a supervisor and a co-supervisor. If it's people you haven't worked with before, it can be very daunting, but these two people have inspired me and, up to today, they still do. They were two of the most fabulous people that I could ever do a PhD with. A PhD is a journey. I finished my PhD in two years. For me, it was not about the two years, it was about what I experienced and what I learned in those two years. That's what has brought me to where I am now, where I'm able to sit on boards and organisation advisory committees and things. That was a process that moulded me. So these are two very inspiring people and I aspired to be like them. I asked myself how they get the time to fit everything in, but most importantly, the rapport they built with every student that they had was very important for me. Often you find hideous stories about how supervisors would just expect papers and a thesis from a student. For me, I was told from the beginning that I lead the study, that I will be the lead author on every paper, and they will just be there to guide me. So I was very comfortable. So those are two of the older people that inspired me.
In terms of younger people, I'm part of a big study, and as the PI, I was granted a very generous 2.5 million grant. The study allowed me to have research assistants and I put an advert out for a research assistant to work on the study. For me, a research assistant’s job is to learn with me, grow with me. So when I found this person, what was inspiring about him was the rapport that he built with me. From day one, he was outspoken, he was willing to learn, he was willing to go beyond what was expected of him. And I found that that worked to his advantage. Because a year later, when I was asked to write a report on him, I had nothing but positive stuff to write about him. He's someone that I wish I was at that age. He sees his career, very positive about the future, and as someone who just wants to continuously learn. So if the person that inspired me is a younger person, it would be my research assistant, somebody who has inspired me. I wish I had that kind of energy when I was his age.
Anna: That's really inspiring that you were able to learn from your mentoring! So you've touched upon inequalities between men and women, and we believe you're a member of the Organisation for Women in Science for the Developing World. Could you talk a bit about gender inequalities in the developing world and what may be some underlying causes and solutions?
Natisha: Gender inequality is something that's always been there, but I think it became more pronounced during COVID-19. I've seen it so much in some of the newer organisations I've started working with. I think if I can speak from a South African context specifically, it would be that when we do not educate men about patriarchy, when we don't educate women who support that system of patriarchy, we're going to always be ten steps behind and always fighting gender inequality. I say this because many times I've been in conversations with people where they say, “Oh, but it's a male thing.” But I've also seen this for myself where, yes, it can be a male thing and it's very easy to put the blame on the opposite sex, but there's a lot of women who still believe in that system. Unfortunately, if we all don't make that overall attempt to educate ourselves about what gender is, we are never going to step out of [gender inequality], we are always going to be consumed by it. I mean take, for example, in research, no matter how much research I'm doing, only one out of three researchers are women. The rest of the researchers are all men who are given time off to do that work, who are given huge sabbaticals to do that work. The only time I think I would ever be given a long phase of time away from the office is if I was pregnant and had to go on maternity leave. So it's always going to be there. When I got my research assistants, somebody asked if I would prefer a man or a woman. I said that I don't have a preference. My preference would be somebody qualified for the job; not somebody based on skin colour, or neither is it based on their gender. So it starts with small things. It starts with the fact that if we are not willing to accept that we need to make these small changes, how will they come about?
I know that science organisations that I belong to have started trying to achieve gender parity, and that's important. Because if you start at that level, when you have young scientists, it becomes something that we embody and grow with as we become senior scientists. I can see the difference from 10 years ago when I was a student, I was sometimes in a very male-dominated environment. I know, for example, when I was doing my master’s, I was working in a lab as the only woman. I had to change my whole perspective because suddenly, I had to stop worrying about what they would think of me. That kind of experience taught me that I don't need validation from a man to be important or to be heard or to be seen. Eventually, a year later, they were in their second year of a master's, I was in my first year of a master's and we graduated together. I went into that lab, totally outnumbered by gender, totally outnumbered by age, but I came out of it stronger. I came out of what I think is a huge accomplishment for any woman. It's not just mine, I see these accomplishments for women. I received my master’s with cum laude. For me, that was important because it was setting the scene for a woman to be seen and to be heard. So I think those things are important. When it comes to writing a paper, standing in front of a platform, and speaking to people about gender issues, nutrition, or anything that I can speak about, I want that platform. It's my platform equally to any man out there. So I think it starts small. It starts with changing mindsets; it starts with us reading about stuff like this. If you asked me 10 years ago about gender stuff, I would push it away, because it didn't excite me, or it didn't stimulate me at that point, it didn't make a difference to my life. But when it started to impact me on a personal level, that's when I saw a difference. Sometimes it's a bit selfish of us to only realise these things when it's happening to us, but sometimes it's better late than never.
I was told, about eight years ago for a job I had applied for, I fit all the criteria, I had the best CV, and I was told by somebody within the Human Resources department that I knew that shared that confidentially with me and said: “You did not get the job, because you did not identify as authoritative and the same as a man.” And then further to that, I did not get the job because I am an Indian woman, and this is a predominantly Black country. So I was facing not just gender issues, but I was facing racial issues. What was a sad realisation just a few months ago, was that I spoke to someone and they didn't know that that was the very same job that I had applied for, and they said to me that that person in that position is not doing what they had said they would do in the interview. It's really sad to hear such things because of the fact that I'm not the only one going through that. I'm pretty sure around the world around the globe, there are people facing the very same thing where people who are qualified, people who are professional, and in a lot of cases, good women are being slated for jobs, because of the fact that we are not seen as a strong sex.
Madeleine: Wow, that's very interesting. Now, we know that you've worked for a lot of different international journals as a reviewer, and you've also written some papers yourself. Now, I was wondering if there's any kind of literature that you wish that the general public was more aware of, or had more exposure to.
“Researchers are writing journal articles that only people who are in the scientific world would want to read about. If I took some of my articles to my parents, they would be excited, because yes, their daughter’s name is there, but they couldn’t care less what the content of the article is. It got me thinking, what about the youth?”
Natisha: It just crossed my mind recently, when I was writing a paper, that there’s so much I would like to do for adolescence, for the youth. Researchers are writing journal articles that only people who are in the scientific world would want to read about. If I took some of my articles to my parents, they would be excited, because yes, their daughter’s name is there, but they couldn't care less what the content of the article is. It got me thinking, what about the youth? Why don't we have something that can be given out? Yes, these kinds of articles that we are used to writing professionally go on the internet. But of course, not every youth can access the internet, especially in a country like South Africa, which is predominantly poor. It's something I’d like to do in the future. I've just come across someone who I met virtually, she's also a South African Black woman, very inspiring, who has an NGO, and she had asked me if I would like to collaborate with her. So I was proposing to bring this idea to her because she already works with youth.
Part of my initiative was to empower women and youth, especially to bring up the literacy rates. In terms of science, I’d like to be involved in getting them to write, or further inspiring them about science. So that's something that I want to see happening in the future. If it starts in South Africa, well, so be it. I would love for that to happen here. So that's something that I can see, that I would want to do differently. I could go any day and give them a talk about science, but not everyone wants to be a scientist. If we are writing inspiring things, based on experiences, that's something that can harness their potential and that's something that I would like to do in the future.
Anna: You've touched a bit upon how you diverted away from your family's traditional medical path. So could you talk a bit about what motivated you to pursue a career as a research scientist? Was there a specific moment or experience that propelled you to seek this career?
Natisha: I'm somebody who likes being around people, I like talking to people. Sitting in a lab and preparing stuff was not going to get me there. I was perfecting 500 samples of something one day, and I realised that I didn’t want to do that. I wanted to be talking to people. I wanted to be empowering people. I wanted to be inspiring people. So I took a leap, I decided to write a PhD proposal that I liked and sent it out, and I got feedback that they would like to meet with me. So that was something that really inspired me.
Another thing that inspired me that time was I was working at a university and a senior staff member had taken me on as a mentor in terms of getting more used to population-based studies. What I liked about that was it kind of put me in a deep end. I had to get out of my comfort zone and write papers that were not medically inclined. So when I started that PhD, that was a very fulfilling journey for me, because I got to interact with people in places I’d never been. I went to impoverished areas where people had never seen an Indian woman in their life. I got to see children who had never touched hair like mine, so I had children touching my hair continuously throughout the day. That's when I realised I didn’t want to work in medical studies anymore; I wanted to work in public health. That's my passion, that's where I want to be. I want to make a difference. Yes, I don't have all the money in the world to help them. I cannot get them out of poverty, but I can try to assist them as a behavioural scientist by getting my research to teach them habits that are positive and that can impact their lives in a better way so that they can eventually make a difference in their communities.
Madeleine: Wow, that's so admirable! Now, having completed your studies in public health, you have a much wider view of public health than most people. What are some things that you would advise anyone, like us, on how we could improve the situation in South Africa and the world in public health?
Natisha: I'm glad you asked this because this is something I talked about in Kenya two years ago at a conference. It's very important because people are inclined to collaborate with those in the USA or the UK because that's where all the big money and scientists are. No disrespect to my colleagues who are in the US and the UK, because I love both places. But every place has an authenticity that you just have to find. We're so used to seeing things based on what people tell us without experiencing it. So, if I could give advice to younger people, it would be not to just explore things in other places. Be fully aware of what's happening where you come from. You know, there's a saying: know your roots. The sad reality is people don't realise that context is very important. I say this because I'm very passionate about the work we do here. When I asked foreign researchers about the South African context, they would be shocked that if we put things like croissants and cupcakes on a questionnaire and send it to a rural area, they would not know what that is. And that's the reality. If you want to work with people in populations, get a bit of background, go out there and get to know the people.
While I was doing my PhD, I worked as a field supervisor for the study. Out of the 21 weeks of data collection, I lived for eight weeks in those rural areas. I went to peoples’ homes. I drank tea in peoples’ homes out of chipped mugs. I'm a bit dark-skinned, but the children had never seen a person that was fairer-skinned than them because all they knew was someone who was dark-skinned. Now I actually do that to my students. If you're not prepared to go out there and be comfortable with that population, you cannot work with them. Because it's not just about collecting data, it's about getting to know them. I can never say this enough: if you live out there, and you experience what these people are experiencing, your master’s or your PhD or whatever research you are doing will become so much more enjoyable and fulfilling. When I was eventually writing my thesis, I didn't feel like I was writing a piece of work to get a mark or a grade, I was writing a part of my life.
Anna: I think that's definitely a message we should all take on. In regards to public health, the World Health Organisation has stated obesity has nearly tripled since 1975. Given your knowledge of the subject, can you talk about whether this is a particular issue during your studies in South Africa? Is there anything you wish that the youth was more aware of?
Natisha: Obesity is a huge problem. I'm just glad I'm in that area of work. I've seen it for so long. Something that really concerns me a lot is that the Department of Health, even in South Africa, is aware of this. We are seeing children eating incorrectly, and the food sold both within (such as through tuck shops) and outside of schools is impacting the health of children. As I said previously, especially in impoverished places, eating healthily is not an option, because there's no money for it. Now with COVID, South Africa is further plagued by food security issues. If we're going to do a nutrition study in a school, I think it will be a full year before we can actually access schools. Even if we do access schools, from my experience working with school children in impoverished places, when pandemics like this come about, most of them end up not going back to school. In South Africa, I don't know if enough is being done.
In different cultural contexts, and in different racial contexts, obesity is seen differently. For example, in a black population in South Africa, being obese is seen as a sign of wealth, it's seen as a sign of happiness. Whereas someone being thin, like me, would be thought to have HIV. Very different. Whereas in Indian culture, being obese is a tragedy. I see many people being body shamed for it. So I think we need to change this perspective. From my previous work with children, and obesity, I know that children are being shamed, and it does affect them. They become adults, and they take it through adulthood. But no one's worried about that.
As a researcher, I work at an international level and help with the prevention and management of obesity. But in my own country, the problem still exists. I don't think it's going to stop existing in the next 50 years until people change their mindsets. The only good thing is that now, things like obesity and mental health are all being given that respect in terms of funding. Previously, if you wanted to have funding on mental health, you couldn't term it as mental health because everyone thought that you wanted to talk about people going crazy. They didn't realise mental health is about self-care. So in the same regard, I would think that obesity is something I'm passionate about. I want to make a difference. As I said, if I get this funding, I'm hoping not just to do a three-year study and finish it off; I want to build a consortium that's ongoing, something that I can also take back, when COVID is over, to impoverished communities, to teach people in these places who have no idea. I met a mother once and she didn't know what to feed her child, purely because what was in the house and what was cheaply available was what she gave to it. After having a conversation with me, she realised that everything she had given him was so wrong. She was not a bad mom. I understood her plight. If you live in South Africa, and you're living in rural areas, you do not have the means to give your child a soup because you don't have money to buy an expensive soup in the shop. But you do have beef at home. So your child, who hasn't had a gut properly developed, will eat beef, even though he cannot digest that. That's the reality that people don't want to see. I'm hoping that if my research continues, and I'm able to make a difference, I want people to see that dimension of obesity work. Many people believe that it’s simply that people eat too much. People emotionally eat because they are unhappy with themselves. It's not that everybody wants to eat because they are greedy. There are so many dimensions of obesity. I think that's something I want to explore further in my career at a later stage, and hopefully, with funding becoming available, I will have a voice to bring things out from a South African perspective.
Although I have to say I have a good team; made up of myself, a scientist from Sweden and a scientist from Nigeria. I was shocked that while we recognise obesity as a problem here in South Africa, the problem was not very well recognised in parts of Europe. I recently published a paper with a few co-authors, looking at Sub-Saharan Africa and Europe, and the nuances in terms of obesity found at a continental level. It's amazing that the problems are not really that different. They are just different in the sense that certain countries have more money. We don't have the same opportunities as them. So I think it's all about trying to make a difference on different levels. But again, I always say this: if you don't start at the grass-root level, it's very difficult to be heard at the top.
Madeleine: You mentioned that trying to implement technology in areas where poverty is more prevalent is hard. I was wondering, is there a way that you think that mobile health or technology will be implemented despite this?
Natisha: The place that I want to work in is impoverished. And we've had numerous discussions for the past few months, and we finally have a proposal. We looked at it for an impoverished country like South Africa, where 72% of people actually use smartphones. It's very encouraging in a way to know that and it needs to be utilised properly. That was something I said about the COVID pandemic: that messages were very conflicting. I think it's still happening now, with the vaccination, people are hesitant to get the vaccine because they're not being sent the right messages. In a country like South Africa, unfortunately, English is not the only language. We have 11 official languages here. During the pandemic, many of the important messages were only sent in English and one or two other languages. My concern with that has always been that it needs to be sent in every official language, because even if there's a minority that speaks the 11th language, they are still important.
When you want impactful data from your participants, you have to be more creative. So in my discussion with my colleague from Sweden, because he's the one that develops the apps, we knew that if people have a smartphone, data will always be an issue for them, so we considered an app that can be used offline. That's what we’re currently working towards. We want to create the impression that this is an app that once downloaded, you have free access to it and you can utilise it. It’s going to give you health messages, it's going to give you everything that you need.
It comes from a previous study that I worked on with one of my bosses, which was a study on teenage pregnancy. While the government in South Africa was doing a huge rollout study for all women facing pregnancy, we found that when it came to teenage pregnancy, they should be treated very differently. With teenage pregnancy, there's a lot of stigmatisation around it. And then the biggest factor is that there's a lot of mortality involved because not many pregnancies go through full term. Health Services are very biased in a way. We used mobile health in that study. We developed the first health messaging library in Sub-Saharan Africa, and I was part of the team. It was very interesting. So we send these messages which they received as SMS or via WhatsApp. The feedback we got was important because they told us that they don't want to be part of the study that the government is rolling out because not all women are treated the same in that study. We explored that further qualitatively and we found that when teenagers go into these clinics and health facilities to access those sexual and reproductive health services, they are seen very biasedly. So that mobile technology worked great.
However, I want to move past that technology. We want to include offline gaming into these things so that the child and the parents at home can work with it. There are two parts to the mobile health I want to do: the fun, interactive stuff will be part of the intervention, but the messages that get delivered are meant to be impactful. Parents need to know that shaming your child because they are obese is absolutely a no. If you have a child that's obese, you don't complain about not having clothes they fit into and you don’t compare the weights of your two children. I want to create the first obesity message library. It's going to be based on the first phase of a study where the feedback comes from the participants themselves. I want to hear what they say through qualitative dialogue such as focus group discussions and in-depth interviews. Based on their feedback, my team and I can then sit down and say: now we need to create a message content library for this app, based on what we've been given, and contextualise it to a South African setting. Then, hopefully, I would like that app to become something that gets used not just in Nigeria and Sweden, but gets used all over Africa and gets used even in first world countries.
Anna: That was inspiring and motivational to hear! So, to finish off our pre-prepared interview questions, we’d like to briefly ask, given your experience in the field, how would you advise an aspiring researcher in public health, STEM or any other field of study?
Natisha: STEM is wonderful! I come from this background and I'm always advocating for it. I always tell people to choose their own path. I come from an Indian background. Luckily, I was never brought up in a home where I was told that I have to be a lawyer, engineer or a doctor, because that seems to be the big norm in Indian homes. I became a doctor because I wanted to become a doctor, not because of anything else. If you’re somebody who wants to give back to the community, one of the best ways you can do that is through research. You get to interact with people. Now, I'm not saying only work in impoverished areas; I'm saying you could work in urban areas as well as rural settings. You will see the difference when you're on the ground and when you're interacting with those people.
I would say don't set yourself limits. When you’re feeling happy about something, if that's your gut, that's your instinct saying: go for it. When you feel that you are harbouring thoughts, and you feel as if you're walking on eggshells, that's your gut telling you that's not something you should consider. Trust your gut. I found that I've trusted my gut. It's gotten me to such amazing places around the world. I got to meet some of the most amazing people around the world and in South Africa that have inspired me, not just people coming from the same standings as me, but people who have lived in impoverished places, and who have so much less than me. Everyone always says “the sky’s the limit” and I live by this because we cannot ever touch the sky. There are no limits to your dreams or to what you want to be. If you're doing a career, or you're following a career in STEM, it opens up doors to a very fulfilling life. I know that it gives me that. I'm very passionate about my work. I can read, sleep, wake up and eat my work. That's how it is. That's how your career should be. It should never be about paying bills, it should not be about being the best at what you do. All those things will come, money will come, status in being a good researcher will come. If you want to be good at something, get into the context of it. Once you die, no one cares about your thesis. No one cares how much you earned. If you leave a legacy and people remember things like your smile, your kind words, the empowering things that you've said to them, that's the legacy you leave behind.
Madeleine: Wow, it is so obvious how passionate you are about your work. That's so great to see. So that concludes all of the questions Anna and I had prepared, but I was wondering if anybody else in the call has any questions they'd like to ask?
Arushi: Have you ever explored anything to do with genetically modified crops and nutrition to tackle obesity?
Natisha: Yes! For my honours, I really liked the project I worked on because I wanted to work on something in nutrition. My supervisor decided to throw a spanner in the works and I had to work on genetically modified foods. It really inspired me, I learnt a lot. As I said, for me learning every day is an experience. I produced a thesis. It was made up of two components: a thesis and doing some coursework. I did a presentation for them looking at how a tomato can be so ripe, so round, and look so good. Then, we looked at pesticides that are being used on such products.
I've written a paper, I think published in 2020 or 2019, and I went one step further from genetically modified foods, and looked at functional foods in the fight against metabolic syndrome. For example, we know of a sweet potato that's around the size of my palm, at most. But, I saw something that was huge and I was blown away. That's all genetically modified. We do not know what kind of pesticides are being used, or what is being injected into these things. I recently read about the way chickens are involved in this. We are getting these plump chickens, but how are they getting plumped up like that? A chicken should just be a chicken. It either has scrawny feet and a big body or whatever. But, now you're getting this very fascinating chicken body. It comes back to the same thing. We’re changing, yes, we are evolving. We are transitioning, and it's great. The bad thing is that we are taking away the livelihoods of farmers. We are moving so far ahead, but when COVID happened, it forced us to go back. Take places like India, Brazil and South Africa, which are still developing countries, where farmers were facing various plights all because they were being told we don't need farming anymore because we have genetics and that their job can be done in a lab. Then farmers were being put out of work. It shows us that COVID taught us we need to go back. For me, that's very important because the universe is trying to tell us that we are making so many mistakes with technology, that we need to start using our minds and our hands again. Maybe we're not using them enough anymore? We are so reliant on technology.
So yes, GMOs are a very passionate area of mine. I haven't worked on it for a few years, I have to admit. But, it's something I want to reintroduce into my students' work again. I want to look at it from a pharmacy nutrition perspective, but also look at it in terms of agriculture, going a bit out of my comfort zone. Not just from a South African perspective, but from that of other developing countries as well. I have been asked to collaborate with people from Kenya and Ghana. I just don't have the time. I'm hoping to visit some agricultural sites when COVID is over because I would like to develop a genetically modified food study.
Olayemi: I want to ask something about gender equality. This is something that bugs me a lot because I'm the only male child. I have three sisters and I'm glad they are people who understand they don't need validation from a man, and they are confident. But sometimes it bugs me. Here in Nigeria, it is easy to see a lot of educated females who still feel they need validation from a man, they still don't understand the concept of gender equality. So, what approach do you use, because a few years ago, people talked about how getting more females educated would give them the confidence they need and would change their perspective. But nowadays, we see a lot of people go to school and they still have the mindset that a man is superior.
Natisha: I'm glad you asked that. Nigeria and South Africa are similar in that way. Two of my very good friends live in Nigeria. I'm so glad they were brought up in homes that are very different, and very much about gender parity.
Unfortunately, in Africa, I can't speak for everywhere else, but I've seen this in a lot of African countries I've travelled to…from a grassroot level, we still have a differentiation. We still identify pink with girls and blue with guys. Yet my favourite colour is blue, and I'm a girl. So it starts there. I was recently on a flight from one state to another in South Africa and I've noticed that during the pandemic, all the domestic airport lounges have been revamped. What I really found very inspiring and nice was that they do not have separate male and female toilets. If you want to use the toilet, you will all stand in the same line and wait to use the toilet which can be used by anyone. They’re small changes, but positive changes.
Coming back to what you’ve seen in Nigeria and coming from a family that has a lot of women, that's not a bad thing. Gender parity and gender equality is not about bashing men either; that's another misconception that some women have. They think we need to bash every man, because every man is a dog, for example. That isn't true, because I'm pretty sure that we have some male inspiration. My dad is one of the most amazing people when it comes to gender, he's treated my mum so well. I've never seen my dad ever raise his hand to my mum, I've never seen him not show affection to my mum. That's the kind of relationship that I want to build with my partner because of what my dad has shown us. The sad part is that in a lot of instances, these things happen, especially in Africa.
When we say gender parity, it is necessary in groups other than gender. We need to consider the LGBTQ+ community. Imagine if we had toilets that were marked male, female, queer, bisexual, etc. People would not want to use them, because this stigmatisation is discrimination. I think we need to be cognisant because no matter how many papers we produce on gender, there is still a gender problem. It's not a South Africa problem, it's not a Nigeria problem, it is a global problem. We allow it to be that way.
As you said, some women still want to be that way. To answer that question, in Black culture, we face the same thing in South Africa as in Nigeria. Black women are taught to be submissive to men or to their partners and black men are culturally taught that their role is to be the head of the household. What I think of this is that we don't need to subject ourselves to social norms, because they cause a lot of unhappiness. Even concerning the LGBTQ+ community, as time goes on, people are moving towards a mindset of “it’s their business.” The world is becoming more diverse. Nigeria is going to get more diverse. It starts again at home. If we come from homes where parents are open to understanding this, it's our duty as people to acknowledge these problems. We need to change that mindset.
I have a niece who’s three months old and she's got to be brought up in a world to learn that you don't always have to have a mommy and daddy. It starts with how we see things. If you say you were brought up in a home where you have females in your home, it is your right and your duty to stand up and say, even though you are a guy, why can't we all run this household? Ask ‘why can't I get perspective from each of you? That helps me to become a better leader of the house’. You're not saying you're the man of the house. You're just saying you'll be the leader of the house. It's all about the words we use, it's about the way we think, and about the way we articulate ourselves. That's what a lot of people are still struggling with. It will take time before we get to that level of acceptance, and people being accountable for how they see people.
Anna: It's definitely a very inspiring message you put across. It's been a pleasure to interview you today and to know more about what you've been doing, thank you so much for coming.
Natisha: Thank you, it was really good speaking to all of you. I am a behavioural scientist, so I can kind of see each person individually and you all seem like very happy, lovely people, so I wish you all the best, and I hope you get to achieve everything you want.
Madeleine: Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure.
